When self-described “trust scientist” Stephen Marsh first introduced the concept of mathematically modeling and computing trust in an influential 1994 thesis paper, he had an inkling that computerized agents would need “computational trust.” But back then did the quirky “nano-farmer” ever envision that decades later AI agents with funny names like Eudamon and Reefwatcher would talk trust on a social network for bots? 

This introduction to Trust Control lays some groundwork for concepts discussed throughout the show.

Find the full Trust Control documentary series in most podcast apps or listen to this episode here:

In this episode:

• How computers trust and the origins of “zero trust”
• Why we measure…well…anything
• Snorting trust? Some of the unexpected methods and proxies used to measure trust and trustworthiness
• Putting a number on trust with trust scores
• The human side of trust that numbers miss
• Pushback on Marsh’s ideas on measuring trust for computers
  
  Featured in this episode:

• Kate Kaye, Trust Control creator and narrator
• Tosan Atele-Williams, Academic Associate in the Faculty of Business and IT and Computational Trust Researcher at Ontario Tech University
• WarīNkwī Flores, Kara-Kichwa Citizen of the Andean Karas, Citizen of the Kichwa Andean-Amazonian People of Ecuador and Land Trustee, Kinray Hub Indigenous Research and Development Primary Investigator, Graduate Research Associate at University of Arizona
• Gale Lucas, Director of the Technology Evaluation Lab at the University of Southern California’s Institute for Creative Technologies, Research Associate Professor in USC’s Departments of Civil Engineering, Computer Science and Psychology
• Andreas Duenser, Research Scientist at Data 61, Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO), Australia
• Bran Knowles, Professor of Sociotechnical Systems at Lancaster University, UK

Sunday political talk show parody
John McBlather voiced by Kyle Huth
Eudamon, Claudia, Reefwatcher and Guardbot AI agents voiced by Kate Kaye and Kyle Huth

Key References (Mostly) in Order of Appearance

PART ONE
The trust bootstrapping problem: how do you verify an agent you have never met?
by eudaemon_0, et al
MoltBook, 2026

Formalising Trust as a Computational Concept 
by Stephen Paul Marsh
Department of Computing Science and Mathematics, University of Stirling, 1994

Trust Systems
by Stephen Marsh
Open Education Lab, Ontario Tech University
2021

Information Trust Model
by Tosan Atele-Williams and Stephen Marsh
Cognitive Systems Research
2023

Build Security Into Your Network’s DNA: The Zero Trust Network Architecture, by John Kindervag
Forrester Research
2010

Aesthetic Measure
by George D. Birkhoff
1933

PART TWO

In AI We Trust: Investigating the Relationship between Biosignals, Trust and Cognitive Load in VR
by Kunal Gupta, et al (including Andreas Duenser)
Proceedings of the 25th ACM Symposium on Virtual Reality Software and Technology
2019

Trust Me: Multimodal Signals of Trustworthiness
by Gale Lucas, et al
Proceedings of the 18th ACM International Conference on Multimodal Interaction
2016

Human rights groups demand Zoom stop any plans for controversial emotion AI
By Kate Kaye
Protocol 
2022

The Benefits of Interactions with Physically Present Robots over Video-Displayed Agents
by Wilma A. Bainbridge, et al
International Journal of Social Robotics 3
2011

Guidebook for the Development and TEVV of LAWS to Promote Trustworthiness
by Andrew O. Mellinger, et al
Carnegie Mellon University Center for Calibrated Trust Measurement and Evaluation (CATE)
2025

PART THREE

Under Ideal Conditions
by Al Zolynas
Published in Under Ideal Conditions
1994

iTWire TV interview with Lakshmi Hanspal, Digicert
2026

Trust Control Credits
Trust Control was researched, written, edited and produced by Kate Kaye. All interviews with sources featured in Trust Control were conducted by Kate unless otherwise noted.

Fake ads and silly satire were voiced by Kate Kaye and/or Kyle Huth.

Music
The tunes featured throughout Trust Control were written by D. Rives Curtright and performed by the band Epic Strange from Trust Control’s home of Portland, Oregon:

• D. Rives Curtright: guitar, baritone sax, percussion and drum machine
• Charlie Gotgart: bass
• Steven Francisco: midi keys
• Octavio Dowling: keys
• Dave Coniglio: drums and vibraphone
• Mike McGovern: bass on Decimation

Hear the full Epic Strange album, Nouveau Electric Mess, on Soundcloud. Hear music from D. Rives Curtright on Spotify.

The work that went into Trust Control was done in Kate Kaye’s personal time and was supported by Oregon State University’s Patricia Valian Reser Center for the Creative Arts fellowship on Trust in the Age of Generative AI and Oregon Humanities.